Public Acknowledgement About Liv And Mukta; Documenting And Responding To Comments

Phos & various people / 2024 October 05 (3644 Words, 21 Minutes)

In this section I just want to keep a record of what is said in the comment section. Analysis will come later. Unfortunately some comments will be missed, but all critiques are here.

I unfortunately don’t know how to get a percise timestamp of the comments so I’ll just be ordering them vaguely by the time they were posted.

I will use “C” to refer to commentors to keep it anon as the point to preserving and analysing these comments isn’t to direct anything to these people personally. Although they are free to reflect on it like anyone else.

Comment thread 1:

C1: Hey, I’m not so sure that I agree with this… if Liv was disturbed by the poem, regardless of Mukta’s intention, I think their response is understandable. They don’t really owe further conversation for repair, and they seemed to still be considerate in asking others connected to Mukta to explain the harm (which was done, no?).
I don’t think that sharing with their followers that they were triggered by this situation is causing harm or threatening Mukta’s access to mutual aid opportunities.
I saw this when it happened and I can’t really say that the way they responded was any different than how I would if someone violated me, regardless of whether they were further marginalized or not.
We can talk more about this privately, but I think it’s important to acknowledge that positionalities don’t negate that both of these folks have been in crises for a while and have likely caused harm to others. All of these things can be true.
I’m open to further convo bc i think it’s important to support ppl navigating conflict.

Me: I agree both parties caused hurt to each other but it was not clear to me what Liv did was a “mistake” so to say. they doubled down and showed no signs of being willing to engage at all, nothing like “later” or “when I’m in a good state we’ll come back and address this”. do you want to see what was said in private to Liv to call them in? (screenshot on my website but I can send to you)

Me: I also want to say, Liv publicly caused harm to Mukta, and caused them to worry for their life… pls do not call this an exaggeration. so “regardless of intentions”… I stand by what I said here.

C1: if you don’t believe them, then that kind of is what it is. I don’t think Liv owed anyone a convo after they were triggered. Genuinely, that is not owed, and that cannot be forced.

C1: I have not stated anywhere that I think this is an exaggeration, so I’m not sure where that is coming from… mukta is allowed to have their own feelings and fears around making a mistake and causing harm. Being fearful of their livelihood and potential consequences doesn’t make that something Liv has to account for. You are welcome to DM what was communicated privately to Liv.

C1: I just don’t think that it’s fair to identify their behavior as “doubling down” so much as having a firm boundary around further engaging after there was harm that was clearly compounded by Mukta’s actions in sending a sexually explicit and triggering poem to Liv. If that isn’t understood, then I do question how y’all view trauma and abuse bc this seems pretty clear to me. There is no real resolution to be had. Folks called Mukta in, they understand that their behavior was inappropriate, and Liv acknowledged that they shouldn’t have shared Mukta’s tag publicly, which I think is also fair. So I’m not sure what the point of this call out it and what is expected of this person who is clearly also not well and has publicly expressed that, only to be further triggered by something that also happened on the day of a traumaversary, making it worse for them. I don’t think the harms caused are equal here, or warrant this level of response tbh.

Mukta: I am not aware that Liv acknowledged anything that you just now mentioned?

Mukta: can tell me about it?

Me: I also didn’t try to force them, this post stated it’s not about Liv anymore… but then would you say the same about Mukta? does Mukta “owe” something? Mukta was also hurt… and you casually not including that tells me u not taking it seriously. I said “pls don’t think it’s an exaggeration” but that’s not to imply you did? that’s 2 different things? also we are blocked and we not checking spying on Liv lol

Me: “folks called Mukta in” I think you didn’t understand what happened. I’ll just DM :)

Me: oh actually I can’t DM u can u do first

C1 (replying to Mukta): they have a highlight on their page for those who are not blocked. Included in that is the following:
“Final thoughts… I want to acknowledge that I did harm Mukta in this process and did not need to post a screenshot showing their handle. It is materially harmful because there is a chance that people saw that and despite what I said, decided to stop supporting Mukta. Everyone can do harm, even someone who is experiencing harm. I have since anonymized Mukta. I still have no interest in being in contact with Mukta and that is my own boundary and I’m allowed to have that.”

C1 (replying to me): I genuinely believe that you are misinterpreting what I am saying, so I’m fine to keep our conversation public.
Please reread my comments and you will see that I said both people were harmed and impacted by the others’ actions. Nobody owes anyone anything.
What Mukta did was inappropriate, and aside from displaying their tag, Liv’s response was perfectly understandable given the nature of trauma and triggers. I do not see how they were being racist, and I think that glossing over the fact that they were initially violated is pretty strange. I still don’t think the harms were equivalent. Did Mukta lose material support bc Liv posted about them? Whether yes or no, actions have consequences and this is not the same as punishment. Yes there are power dynamics at play here. AND I think Liv has been abundantly clear with expressing that they do not think Mukta should lose material support bc of this. So whether their followers are even reactionary enough to block Mukta over this incident, the fact that Liv has been this transparent leads me to believing their intentions and willingness to admit fault where it exists.

Mukta: this is my first time knowing abt this, thanks for sharing the highlights text

C1 (replying to Mukta): no problem. I understand that you were seeking repair and that does not seem feasible. Is there anything else that you’re looking to come from this?

Me: we were exactly addressed the fact that Liv posted their tag. and details around how things were handled including blocking people. I guess you’re right Liv is free to block anyone. WE DID NOT SEE LIV’S ADDRESS but Mukta at least should know. that address is PERFORMATIVE because the person it was harmed wasn’t even aware. also, I think it’s important we acknowledge that we AGREE that harm/hurt was caused to both parties. I literally agree with you, although I’m not apologising on Mukta’s behalf, because I think that’s something I shouldn’t meddle with, harm caused by one person should be apologised by the same person.

Me: You wouldn’t know but in the first few versions of the post I had the exact worry that people are gonna think I’m “glossing over” Mukta’s side. I can’t say I am or I’m not and you’re free to judge by my actions.

Me: also the screenshots I was gonna send you are on my website. The link is in the posts caption

Comment thread 2:

C1: I read both of your posts for a fourth time, and what Mukta did was violent. Anyone could see that Liv shared about a traumaversary that same day, and it is engaging in bad faith and abuse apology to say that they should have responded differently or when “they were in a better place.” I don’t think that’s cool, and I do not expect to change your mind about this. This is for others to see and determine for themselves. I will reiterate that there is no repair to be had here, and that does not make Liv reactionary or racist.

Me: Sure. Heard

Me (way later): I just have one thing I’d like to get information on (well, for now lol). can you explain how DARVO applies to my behaviour? would be helpful to get some details. you don’t owe me that obviously but I wanted to ask so I asked!

C2: I can also chime in when I have capacity re this if ur interested

Me: oh yes pls. comment or DM or whichever.

Comment thread 3:

C3: People aren’t owed repair. That’s not what having an abolitionist, anti carceral, TJ centered politic means. I am disturbed by your twisting of an abolitionist politic into apologism. Mukta sent an unsolicited sexually explicit poem. Race/positionality does not change that fact. Your statement downplays the violence in that, and you are equating the harms that occurred here. If Mukta lost any potential mutual aid because Liv exposed this behavior publicly that is a consequence of Mukta’s behavior. Consequences are not punishment and someone posting about another’s behavior is certainly not equivalent to carceral state punishment.

Me: ok, Liv doesn’t have to respond. this I agree. I will post something later that will respond to all of your points. I am new to “activism” and I bring in my own biases. happy for this to be an ongoing discussion.

C1: maybe you should’ve led with that… you do not appear to be equipped to navigate conversations around harm, abuse, and repair. You are engaging in abuse apologism, and these posts were a textbook example of a DARVO campaign. I seriously hope you both reflect and come to terms with the way you gaslighted me publicly in attempt to engage you in good faith, while defending a survivor who was violated with a sexually explicit message and condemned for refusing to engage with someone who sexually harassed them.

Mukta (replying to C1): posting about it publically is their right, but bringing one’s mutual aid into it is idk..

Me (replying to C1): I realised my mistake, and it’s still not good enough for yall 😂 yall are the same

C4: why did you send them that poem? what was your intent in sending something so explicit after (presumably) reading their account of SA? Why did you assume that would be welcome (which can be assumed as you provided no context nor CW)? If you just sent them that without reading their post, why would you do that? That is not safe behaviour. You must take accountability for that.

Mukta (replying to C4): i already take accountability for that. Also responding to your question, I shared that poem as it was one of my resistance poem so I shared it to giv power and solidarity - intent. Regardless it made harm and take/have taken accountability

Me (replying to C4): see what Mukta said (screenshot) on my website

C1: launching a DARVO campaign is not a mistake. You really should delete these posts. It remains unclear whether @Mukta understands that it’s not about the lack of CW, it’s about sexual harassment towards someone who was very public about their sexual assault. At this point, you both should apologize for wasting people’s time and energy trying to sort through abuse apology. You did not apologize to me for publicly gaslighting me in these comments while I tried (very generously) to break down why all of this is wrong.

C1 (replying to Mukta): the fact that you’re naming a rape fantasy as a resistance poem is truly off the mark and until you realise that, I don’t think there’s anything further to say but I haven’t seen any accountability for you engaging in sexual harassment.

Me (replying to C1): i was more acknowledging and admitting, that me suggesting that “Liv should respond” is a mistake. me making this post was very intentional and absolutely not a mistake. I apologise for saying Liv should have responded.

Me (replying to C1): rape fantasy 😂😂😂 you defining Mukta’s action for them. calm down pls. I started to make a new post to more deeply address these comments and I’m actually very close to being done but I’ll add these 2 new ones too

C1: your responses are disturbing. It is clear that you nor anyone else are going to keep Mukta accountable and quite frankly, y’all deserve each other. I personally wouldn’t weaponize my identity after sexually harassing someone and launch a DARVO campaign against a survivor of sexual assault but that’s just me.

Me: keep Mukta accountable for the thing yall made up. Sure

C3: That we made up? You literally shared the full text of the poem which is sexually explicit and in the first person. Sharing unsolicited sexual material is at the very least a violation. Anyone who received that poem with no context, warning, or consent would believe this is someone sharing unsolicited sexual fantasies. Again I find it very disturbing how much you are willing to dismiss the nature of this and use positionality and identity to obfuscate sexual violence.

Me (replying to C3): I’m not dismissing it I’m trying to tell you it was already addressed (in part 1). I just posted something new related so feel free to read. I have to go now though

Mukta: also, more info(?), poem was written that day and shared to my stories as usual and shared to few ppl including liv. And yes I should have asked or given a warning/note at least as , as a survivor i understand feeling triggered and yet i didn’t practice this that time which i should have

Mukta: I, as a survivor, wrote a resistance poem, solely from my lived experience, and shared it with ppl including Liv and to my stories, my way of sharing caused harm I am accountable for it and it’s not a rape fantasy

C1 (replying to Mukta): You have lost credibility here. You don’t need to convince me. The fact that you continues to think that the sexually explicit content of your poem is some sort of resistance is warped and twisted.nand the fear of you losing mutual aid support for being blasted as someone that sexually harassed Liv is a natural consequence of engaging recklessly. You have caused far more harm to them and this is awful to dismiss.

Mukta (replying to C1): I wasn’t convincing but clearing up the facts, someone else doesn’t get to define how I, as a survivor, make a poem of my own experience of oppression, the poem exists outside of Liv, it is my voice as a survivor in response to the daily sexual violence I experience, my way of sharing caused absolute intense harm isn’t debatable and absolutely I account for.

Me: I for one stopped caring is i was “credible” to you long ago. Also in case you didn’t see I posted an update

Ngwagwa: Your update still missed the point. goodbye

Comment thread 4 (a few different comments):

Comment 1 on post part 2:

C2: I read through this. Mukta was not acting with care to send that to Liz unprompted , and I’m not sure why that’s controversial at all. You don’t have to analyze ngwagwa’s response. What I don’t understand is that Liz has already apologized, has already blocked people and is offline so maybe just focus on supporting mukta’s mutual aid instead of defending sending a messed up piece of writing. Why is there no acknowledgement that that was inappropriate? Doesn’t mean Liv was justified in blasting them publicly, and I do agree that’s not how it should’ve been handled. Mukta’s mutual aid shouldn’t be affected and overall I don’t super understand the hyper focus on Liv (who again as far as I can see, is probably not coming back online anytime soon)

Me: Mukta and I both didn’t know they apologised, otherwise things would have been edited and different in the post. I said I was blocked early on why you assume I could see what Liv posted?

Me: was there no acknowledgement that it was not appropriate? did u see part 1?

Me: I do want to say I appreciate your effort probably trying to be as nice as possible. I understand what that’s like

(then they went to comment on part 1, that will be documented separately below)

C2: I see, I could send you the screenshot from their story but yeah that makes sense

C2: read them in opposite order, didn’t see the acknowledgement initially

Me: I wonder how many people did that or didn’t read both 😭 anyway I also just realised that I put Liv’s handle in there by mistake. I’ll at least address this as it is also a mistake and caused harm

C2: I can send you their acknowledgement of the harm they caused (to be fair it’s just 1-2 slides but it’s there)

comment 2 on post part 2:

C2: And I am open to messaging about this as a black queer person, if you’d like to sort of pick by brain a bit more. I dunno I don’t love the way this is being framed and I hope I can provide some clarity if it’s needed

comment 3 on post part 1:

C2: Yeah the public blasting of their page was not appropriate anf again, as far as I can tell, Liv isn’t really online anymore so their sort of social media reach and influence hopefully has dwindled. They did also apologize for putting mukta on blast and idk, it seems like the priority should just be in getting mukta mutual aid and boosting their posts? Liv made a mm

C2: a bad decision in going after someone publicly bc they were understandably in a reactive state. That poem was really really brutal honestly and i’m hopeful that folks who are friends with Mukta can privately discuss that in greater detail, and overall yeah white people with large platforms can and should be more mindful of their influence and that their actions and words hold a lot of weight in mutual aid spaces over other marginalised people.

Mukta: It’s brutal cuz lived experience of global south sexual violence is brutal, so it only an indicator of the vast difference in lived experience of sexual violence in global south v north as only one is structually disadvantaged wrt the other, it’s not brutal to folks of the global south who live it daily, poem is soley from the lived experience of a global south sexual violence survivor, folks from global north labelling it in various is only further display of vast power imbalance inherent and the privilege.

C2: It is, I don’t deny that

C2: I just don’t think it’s safe or care centred to send that to someone unprompted without any sort of warning or indication of why… it’s a major trigger for many like myself

C2: I wouldn’t say it’s a privilege for someone who is a survivor of assault (me) to not want to be reminded of it more then i already am every day of my life

Mukta: Yes absolutely, care centred means I engage in warnings/ask, that’s my undebatable stance too

C2: So…. Why did that not hapen in this interaction with Liv? unless I’m missing something

C2: and also im a black MaGe in the united states ….. You cannot speak for my experience just bc I’m decended from people who were brought here through chattel slavery and I’m still regularly exposed to voilence every day of my life in ways with no “coping” skills to even manage it

Mukta: And some of the shit ppl have said here today literally gets ppl killed especially yes you guessed global south survivors, i can’t keep ‘quiet hands’ as these westerners press their boot into my neck and some of them are too comfortable in perpetuating our violence/killing, can’t quietly watch as they set the bed for my literal loss of life and if my words feel extreme it’s only further indication of the massive power imbalance b/w south and N, and north and it’s norms and it’s sensitivities are not the centre of the world especially the global south.

C2: So I dunno if there just miscommunication or what but I’m not denying your experience or your right to share it publically, you shuold if you want to and need to. There just no need to specifically send a message describing graphic rape to others who have experienced it, unprompted and unasked for and then get mad when they don’t want to engage with that

C2: Seems like you could use some unlearning about anti Blackness in your analysis of the global south and the global north, bc people also hate discussing those layers and realities when they’re complicit in the further dehumanisation of marginalised bodies

Mukta: This did not happen here as me living in the global south as a multiply oppressed person my world doesn’t revolve around the norms and sensitivities of the north, i had sent the poem to other ppl too and sent to Liv as well and to my story as well. Also, not speaking for your lived experience but instead mentioned the disparity that is present between the south and the north and hence don’t know the norms and sensitivities over there sometimes

Mukta: First part is response to “so why this didn’t happen?” then “also…..” addresses your other comment

Mukta: Response to unlearning abt anti-Blackness - absolutely

Mukta: “a message describing graphic rape” no this is not my poem and harmful (why harmful - refer to my first comment)

Comment thread 5:

Me (just saying under the post randomly): Why people telling me to take the post down or don’t analyse or do this and that? That’s weird

C1: Because it’s a DARVO campaign. Look it up

Comment thread 6:

C5 (replying to another comment that isn’t here): tbqh hell nah the poem is messed up to send to someone you barely even talk to with no context or msg, has nothing to do with being white, that poem sent on the same day as a post made by liv talking about SA with a knife, that poem is extremely sexual and fkn disgusting to send to someone you don’t know, this “analysis” whack asf

– end of copy of comments! –

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