blog..
Public Acknowledgement About Liv And Mukta
Phos and Mukta; Phos / 2024 October 02 (9861 Words, 55 Minutes)
Let me just very clearly re-state this in the very beginning this time.
Since this is ALL yall Liv supporters care about -
Mukta understands and acknowledges, that sending a poem with explicit imagery, without context or warning, caused harm to Liv. Mukta apologise for this.
Mukta said to me “…I should do a consent/note thing, cuz I see it’s an act of care and i should utilise it as needed, this one I’m very clear on and I’ll practice it as needed”.
Mukta said in comments “And yes I should have asked or given a warning/note at least as, as a survivor i understand feeling triggered and yet i didn’t practice this that time which i should have”.
Now let’s get on with it. This current, updated blog post have de-identified Liv, included my little “response post”, and added a new section of further analysis, guided by comments on the original instagram post.
There is another post for only the comments (and maybe response to come).
Images have alt text.
Table of Contents
Part 1. The Original post
Note: This section is the unedited version of original blog post (posted to the public on 2024-10-02 (AEST)) (Unedited except screenshots) which is a copy of the instagram posts
the original instagram posts have been deleted to remove identifying information.
It is now reposted on instagram but the repost no longer include most of the content of the original post and refers to this blog post for the complete content.
This is a copy/archive of an instagram post I (and Mukta) made (well, technically 2 posts, because it was too long), with some parts slightly edited for the website reading experience, and even more details that we couldn’t add to the post itself - “reciepts”, so to say - to the end.
It also serves as a screen reader friendly version of the post!
Important note: unless you are someone who knows Liv well and can be gentle and supportive to them, and actually get across to them, we do not encourage people to reach out to Liv directly about this incident.
Also I haven’t figured out how to resize images on wide screen yet so if you’re viewing on a computer, apoligies for large images (for now), they didn’t need to be that large xx
Now enjoy :)
Introduction
I’m sharing what happened publicly, despite a part of us feels “this is not that important, do you really need to be talking about it”.
Part of why it feels like “maybe not important” is because in the end, “nothing bad really happened”.
Now I want to say in affirmation: Lack of emotional safety and gaslighting IS part of structural violence.
We feel often people who are systematically disempowered choose silence, and for good reasons, but we want to speak up this time.
A lot of us have been burned by self proclaimed allies, abolitionists, activists etc. Which is another reason we want this to be communicated to the public. This is an important lesson both for people who claim these labels, and vulnerable, oppressed people to see it for what it is, know when to protect yourself, and know we’re here for you if you go through the same thing.
During the time we organised our thoughts and worked on this post, it became no longer about trying to get through to Liv. but we want to say that in general, public accountability is needed after harm is done and false narratives have been spread, in public. If Liv wishes, they can still do their part. Someone else said it, activism is not private self improvement.
What Happened
Thursday night (AEST) (Sept 19th), I got a message from my friend Mukta about a conflict with Liv.
Mukta has sent a resistance poem with explicit imagery to Liv without preface or asking for permission, after Liv shared a personal experience with SA in a post.
Liv is angry about recieving and being made to read what Mukta sent and blocked Mukta soon after. By the time Mukta saw the messages and tried to communicate further and apologise they found they were blocked.
The poem (TW)
Please engage mindfully or skip this part if you need to.
Sitting on your high chair
Plush chair
you tell me
You’ll be gentle
You’ll take it slow
y’all be gentle
Y’all be slow
different chair
different height
y’all be gentle
y’all take it slow
and you think it’s a gift
a token
a key
a card
oh she this oh she that
tell her I’m understanding
I’ll be gentle I’ll take it slow
I nod I nod until I cannot
I smile even blush until I cannot
you never get it do you
fuck your gentle fuck your slow
I’ll burn your chair and do it rough
I’ll teach you all dick -taking is the same
and do it rough
I’ll teach you until you can nod
a knife is a knife gentle or not
I’d ask you are you scared babygirl
if I were to shove this knife into your ass it would take you so gentle
I’d take it slow
or whatever way you want
plenty choices
Your holes your choice
the knife always on the table
what you say
call it love making?
But you wouldn’t get it
all dick-taking is the same
to you hate and resistance are the same
you say violence is violence
so when I burn it all
in the end
I’d be so gentle
I’d take it slow
destroy the constructs of a- dick
teach you not all violence is the same
teach you my resistance is not your hate
teach you how this gentle this slow is a violence
teach you how this resistance this fire this knife is me not letting this kill me
tell y’all
I’d never be so gentle
never take it slow
(end)
(Can I just say, damn the more I read this poem the more I fall in love with it…)
After hearing what happened I wanted to check if Liv said anything publicly about this.
I saw Liv posted about this incident in their stories and showed Mukta’s page (screenshot below; all screenshots at the end) asking people who know Mukta talk to Mukta.
a couple of hours later, Liv commented on the mutual aid post about Mukta and asked me to read their stories, I guess to make sure I didn’t miss it.
I responded to the comment by dming Liv. In my message I agreed about Mukta’s mistake. But I had to point out the contradiction between the way they are reacting and their values.
Liv has not replied and I think I’m blocked too (not sure when).
After we’re both blocked, I no longer have a way to check what Liv may have said about this incident or us, but we have mutual aquaintances(?) so I heard and saw some things via them in the next few days. I want to acknowledge I didn’t see all that was said so I will just comment on what I did see.
Analysis
Note: I used Mukta’s direct words in some places of this analysis. This post was the product of both of our labour.
it is true Mukta isn’t close with Liv, and shared something potentially triggering without warning or asking for permission.
Mukta is taking accountability here and would like to engage in repair with Liv.
Mukta have asked me to communicate to the public, that they realise their mistake and will do better in the future by practicing warnings/consent as needed, as it is important to them to show and practice care to people.
On the other hand, Liv’s reaction to being hurt, is to cease direct communication and cut the opportunity to repair.
And, publicly brand someone, a disabled mad comrade in the global south*, who rely on social media to stay alive and is battling known and unknown dangers every day, as a violent person. This is also not ok.
Liv’s actions could have put Mukta in great danger. I’m glad it hasn’t turned out so so far but we are both still weary. Continuing to talk about this could be dangerous for this reason. But again we didn’t want to be silent anymore.
and even after naming and blocking Mukta, Liv refuse to be in communication about this with others (eg. me) when I wasn’t completely supportive, and is not proactive about any transformative justice procedures.
I understand reacting emotionally in the moment (not a negative thing in itself), so initially we were hoping one day we’ll be unblocked, and we’ll talk things through, or someone who know Liv well can be a mediator if talking to us is too confronting for Liv.
This is seeming less likely by the day especially Liv appears to have moved on - they stopped bringing it up in public as far as I can know, and they’re not reaching out directly or through a third party. I could be wrong here because again I can’t see. But my point is Liv isn’t directly saying NOR signalling to us that they want to resolve this.
Is Liv happy to publicly brand someone violent after they’re hurt then just call that done? As far as I understand that’s not very transformative justice.
Liv was hurt, then they used their platform to retaliate. I’m sure it was for venting and seeking support too, but the retaliation is there.
Maybe this is not the intention but this is the impact.
When this is called out (by me privately), Liv simply chose to ignore and silence us.
Mukta felt threatened and endangered, and was worried about what else may be done for days. Of course they did.
Now, important context: Liv is white and Mukta is Indian, living in India.
i hope everyone are up to date as best you can with what came to light recently (and ongoing) in India regarding sexual violence, so i won’t explain here. if not, ask and we can point you to sources. heavy CW if you’re going to look it up.
Liv’s reaction and how they have dealt with this overall and ongoing is rooted in whiteness. Keep this in mind when you read the following analysis.
Liv put the attention of their followers on Mukta in a very particular way.
First they shared a screenshot of them sharing the mutual aid post for Mukta. I made that post, for Mukta’s safety, it only tagged Mukta in the caption and did not include Mukta as a collaborator.
then they specifically shared a screenshot of Mukta’s profile page and said “this is who I’m talking about”. as if to say, make no mistake, it’s the person, not just the actions.
They also went to the Mutual aid post for Mukta to comment. The mutual aid post. It is possible people may see that comment and decide against supporting Mukta.
Regardless of intention or emotions, this caused harm to Mukta.
It seems like Liv went out of their way to discredit Mukta’s character and the mutual aid effort for Mukta and discourage people from supporting.
I know Liv explicitly said otherwise, I’d argue here believe the action (multiple actions) not the words.
it seems to me, calling out Mukta’s name, and making sure their version of the story is seen (and believed and validated), is more important to Liv, than really making sure Mukta has learned their mistake.
Liv should know Mukta relies only on mutual aid to sustain their life and how grim the situation is. the post that they posted a screenshot of said so clearly. This shouldn’t be unfamiliar or hard to believe to Liv - they seemed like someone who would understand the struggle of trying to communicate the extent of your abuse and pain when it’s so extreme.
Unfortunately this is a pattern - a brown person’s suffering is less real and less important to white people.
Now let’s get into some details.
Detail 1.
In response to the poem, Liv said to Mukta (DM reply) “why did you send me this?” “is it intended to be directed towards me?” and “please explain yourself”.
and then Liv publicly said on their story asking “someone who actually knows them could tell them to not fucking do this”
but now Liv doesn’t seem to care about what comes out of the questions they asked or “someone talk to Mukta”. This disparity and the “flexibility” to switch to whichever most convenient narrative is a sign of power.
Detail 2.
Liv blocked Mukta quickly after asking for an explanation.
it is understandable in a way, but also to assume someone living in a dangerous, abusive household and in a different country, different timezone, to constantly have access to their phone and able to respond instantly is a misjudgement to say the least.
Detail 3.
Liv said Mukta is “someone I do not know”.
First, this makes it seem like this is their only interaction with Mukta, which is not the case.
Another thing about this is - this can be an individual difference, but I think we all would benefit from getting to know the mutual aid recipients we are supporting, even just a little, even slowly.
if for security they’re anonymous, we can ask about them and get to know them through the organisers. mutual aid unlike NGO is human to human.
And of course, do what you can here, there’s no shame in not having energy to get to know 10s and 100s of people. but using “I don’t know them “ to protect your own comfort, to distance yourself, to refuse to engage at your own convience is insidious.
Detail 4?
When I responded to Liv’s comment via dms, I wasn’t overly nice in my messages, I didn’t vehemently apologise on Mukta’s behalf or condemn them, because it is not necessary and to expect such is to assume one pain is more valid than the other - white behaviour.
I also unfollowed them and removed them as a follower on my private account only. I don’t know if that was interpreted as being hostile and contributed to me being blocked.
at that point I already saw what Liv posted, I saw what they were willing to dish out against Mukta.
At that point I could not be nice and accomodating to them and I did not feel safe to have them around my personal space.
At least I was neutral because people deserve that. But that wasn’t enough.
All of what I said about what happened, or what I chose to focus on, can seem like “small” or maybe “reading too much into things” to a unsuspecting onlooker.
But these small details can in fact tell us A LOT. and we’d all do better to watch out.
There are actually MORE details I could have gone through but didn’t due to space. If you read the appendix, let me know if you noticed extra things in the comments ;)
This whole time Liv intrinsically understands their privileges and used it naturally “when needed”. The fact that it’s so natural should make we all think.
Uncountable amounts of these incidents, all the tiny little details included, continues the default power structure and oppression in our daily lives.
There is also a more “hidden”/insidious aspects of this incident.
In Liv’s story posts (that I have seen), Liv naturally positioned themselves as a victim, and the (only) one.
They’re presenting their reality as the “good” and hence “correct” one.
They defined Mukta’s action and intention and the interaction and (lack of) future interaction. They became the authority in this situation.
Mukta said: “Liv successfully managed to manipulate even my own understanding of my poem and myself in this situation”.
What Liv said in public and the way they said it also feels like they’re not expecting to be challenged, not leaving room for disagreement (unlike me here I’ve been emphasising “I could be wrong” and very careful about my words in general), and they expect how they endangered Mukta won’t even be noticed by their supporters/friends.
Liv was in control of how this incident progressed in the public eye.
We couldn’t talk to them privately;
Mukta is not in a position to post about it publicly;
I as a third party had to be very careful and deliberate about posting about it publicly…
In fact, I did want to immediately talk about it publicly. I knew instinctively though, if I was not careful, if I say a wrong word, what I could face. (What JUST happened to Mukta is proof what could happen to me.)
I only said the bare minimum I believed had to be said immediately (I posted about “be careful of those stories” immediately after I saw them in my private stories, and after days of carefully thinking I poted on my public account about it very vaguely).
I also didn’t want to “add fuel to the fire” - we wanted to resolve this rather than turn it into a shouting match.
All these cautions, did not help us. The result was just - Liv shaped the public narriative from the first moment, and they would have completely, if we decided to not post this.
When you have power, having control of the narriative feels only natural, and you don’t even notice it.
We have to be aware of the power we hold, even in moments of being hurt. The systems are set up in a way that in almost everything, the “natural” reaction we have is steeped in power imbalances too.
This is obviously situational, and I’m not trying to victim-blame. It’s also relative. someone can be the one in power in one interaction/situation, and be in a different role in a different situation.
Even when we react out of trauma responses, power imbalance still exists and will always hurt the party with less systematic privilige.
This incident cannot be reduced to only a trauma response for this reason. That would be white neutrality - the one with power can be afforded the innocent excuse but the same will not be applied to the oppressed party; and a form of sanism - trauma response don’t make us hurt people, using power over people and reinforcing systems of oppression do.
Lessons in this incident:
-
Read and understand the mutual aid call outs you boost and support. This is not a big ask compared to what people are going through. If you have extra energy/time, and if it’s possible, get to know them and talk to them.
-
whiteness is invisible to the white person. power is invisible to the person holding it. this is why others calling it out is crucial and should be listened. this is part of decolonising your mind. Yes it’s uncomfortable. This is also why white people needs to take a back seat because it’s so easy for yall to do harm and not even aware and because of power not get called out at all.
-
people with power can easily NOT practice what you preach, because of different default reality, comfort, your progression in unlearning not “there yet”… Be ok with listening to people when they bring up something uncomfortable. You’re bound to mess up and accountability is a gift.
-
community and movement NEEDS open discussions, disagreements, to go forward. Also, when someone cuts someone off, when “drama” happens, notice most of the time who still have access to community support and spaces regardless what happened, and who now needs to tiptoe to get support (material or emotional).
These “lessons” points I have seen many people like Butter, Asiatu, Candice talk about, just recently, and many others over time. Just giving credit where credit is due!
We can all use these broader points to reflect how we are going to deal with mistakes and repair. I’m not going to be super specific here but I’m happy to elaborate if people want.
And I was gonna talk about “using proper CW” here but after so much thought, I think that actually distract from the main problems this situation present to us, and sort of puts a comparison between what Mukta did and what Liv did - to make such a comparison is to minimise what Mukta experienced and to give Liv’s actions legitimacy. To equate Mukta’s mistake to Liv’s violence would also be an act of oppressive violence. This is not me “condoning” anything, but whatever. At this point, if you get it you get it!
Finally
Aspiring/Self-proclaimed abolitionists and activists:
You can talk all the theory you want but when you face a BIPOC person’s life, and you see and feel, close up, the power in your hand over them (IF you do), at that moment how you act is more important than any theory you will ever say or write. This will always be the most fundamental and important. And you will face many such moments.
Just like each settler upholds the settler colony, each person especially white person that does not critically examine their actions builds on the death machine.
Final meta note
this post was a LOT of work, mental work. I now understand very closely what people go through when they write a post like this.
Me and Mukta needed to hone in our intention, find the best words that can’t be misinterpreted, make it objective and inoffensive and “polite”… but also keep our perspective and voice clear.
we felt like we have to be perfect and there’s pressure if we don’t see some criticism coming and address beforehand, then everything we say may be discredited because of one point we missed.
we know we have to try very hard to convince because our struggles and pain, when put side to side as a white person’s, literally seems less, and less important to people.
this is what anyone have to prepare when you’re doing something perceived hostile to someone with power, and power itself, as someone that power doesn’t align with. but the other party can just say whatever they want to say in the moment regardless of what impact it may have and put it behind them.
Appendix 1 - more related screenshots of Liv’s stories
These are all that I saw but apparently not all that was posted.
In chronological order, including the one posted already in main article.
Appendix 2 - some DMs that was mentioned in the post
I did also send another message that’s like “I’m going to sleep now so I may reply late” in the same day, and a few days later another message asking if Liv still wants to talk. I don’t know when I was blocked so I don’t know if they saw those messages.
Part 2. Quick response post
Note: This section is the unedited version of original “follow up” post (posted to the public on instagram on 2024-10-05 about 2am (AEST)) I wanted to address some stuff that was discussed in comments as soon as possible, so I posted the most important parts as soon as I could like this.
title: “Some clarifications and a few apologies”
by Oct 4th (AEST), some people reached out with disagreements re the previous posts.
You can see the original comments (and my original responses) for yourself under the original post (mostly part 2) (*note: you can’t anymore on instagram at least for now but see the above)
but I’ll be removing that post soon and reposting for reasons I will explain.
anyway some stuff that was mentioned both in comments and private needs to be addressed.
First I want to apologise for talking “for” Mukta at times in my response to comments.
Mukta is generally happy to talk with yall and I need to watch myself and not overstep.
my opinions on what happened doesn’t overwrite Mukta’s opinions if they express something different.
this is not an easy judgement as we made the post together, but I’ll be more mindful in future interactions.
Clarification 1:
I was told “Mukta” is apparently a traditionally male name, but our Mukta is not male.
Mukta is AFAB and agender.
(and they had no idea about the “traditionally male” thing either, maybe regional?)
this may change some things about perceiving Mukta’s poem.
Or maybe not.
But both of us didn’t know people had this assumption and I think at least, it’s possible it could have informed judgement.
Clarification 2:
I was also told that the language of the poem matches up with Liv’s post too perfectly to not be directed at them, or a product from Liv’s post.
If you hold this understanding, “cos the clues are too obvious”, I can’t force you to change. I understand that logic.
but I just want to clarify that this was not how the poem was written.
it was solely from Mukta’s lived experience.
we can talk about how this caused Liv to be especially very triggered and rightfully so, but if we are talking about the intention or what happened on Mukta’s side, that was not the intention and not what happened.
Mukta’s mutual aid “main summary text” for your context:
Apology 1:
I didn’t know Liv went back and revised their stories to have Mukta’s ig handle removed.
I had Liv’s handle in my screenshots. I didn’t realise this and this is a oversight in the beginning as I didn’t intend to name them “like that”, and right now especially not very appropriate anymore.
I’ll remove the posts soon and repost without Liv’s handle. and make the same correction on my website.
i will not be taking the posts down forever.
i’ll try to preserve the conversations in the comments in my own way, but anyone is free to keep their own records.
unfortunately it is very late now here so I’ll do this first thing tomorrow.
Apology 2:
when talking in comments I have expressed/suggested things like “Mukta was ready to explain and repair” and “Liv should have at least responed in some way” or could have done this or that. there’s unconscious subtext there: “Liv should have just listened to an explanation and all will be well!”
i have been trying to shed that thought when writing up the post (which I could edit for days and fix issues) but i wasn’t very successful because it came through again in my comments (which is more real time). I acknowledge this is not a helpful perspective and can easily lead to abuse apologism (?) and the centering of party that caused harm rather than the victim. I apologise for the hurt I caused by expressing this in the comments.
(also I say “unconscious” because I was not/less aware before but am aware now. this isn’t a “excuse” for not being aware before but just acknowledging the change.)
Mukta caused harm to Liv, Liv tried to address it and caused harm to Mukta. I tried to address that and I caused harm to Liv again (by naming their handle) and I expressed harmful ideas.
let this be a lesson for everyone watching.
I’m glad some communication came from the original post, so that now we can address these.
– the end! –
Part 3. General Analysis of Comments (New)
These general analysis is here because it may be helpful to ANYONE. It’s anything that didn’t fit into the “quick post”/previous section, as I wanted to get the most important parts out as soon as possible.
Sometimes I’ll be talking as if I’m responding to the commentors, but the point is to illustrate double standards and other issues. Writing like this felt natural and was cathartic tbh so I’m keeping it this way.
Now let’s dive in!
Consequence?
Yall seem to think “Mukta was afraid for their life because of BEING CALLED OUT, because of afriad of consequences of their own action”
This is just straight up inventing/revising reality. But you wouldn’t know cos you either don’t know at all, or don’t listen to/believe Mukta.
(yall are literally only believing the white victim, and seeing the non white victim as… not a victim?? and because we tried to tell our version of the story (now we are acting with agency and yall hate to see that.)? when Liv mess up and give themselves reasons and later “acknowledge” it’s fine though? tell me it doesn’t have to do with whiteness again?)
Mukta wasn’t afriad when they found out Liv blocked them. Being blocked was unfortunate but reasonable. Mukta is only afriad after they come to know Liv posted their handle publicly and also even commented on their mutual aid post.
We also came to know later, that people tagged/collabed in the Mutual aid post (so not just me), were contacted by Liv. I’m not sure if this was done publicly or privately. Liv went out of their way to harrasse people, to try to remove support from Mukta. (How can you argue the intention was not retaliation?) I didn’t mention that part because in a serious analysis, I was going to “do the right thing” and just talk about what I DID see with my own eyes. But since Liv’s side is not gonna bring it up, I will. Can Liv admit to having done this?
Liv themself said they shouldn’t have exposed Mukta publicly like that. That’s means Liv agree that it isn’t fair. Your “consequences” argument doesn’t even stand.
Also you can’t be telling me “this is disporportionate, drop this immediately, Liv already apologised” AND “Liv did nothing wrong and was perfectly reasonable” at the same time. Cognitive dissonance?
Mukta says: “a circle (kind of) should form, I a sexual harraser, any potential loss of life/livelihood/dignity as a natural consequence of my sexual harrasing is a natural consequence and cannot be accounted by those who I sexually harrassed (one manifestation of sexual violence -sexual harrasment) - for this to be true, I’d have to be a sexual harraser - for which to be true - my poem would have to be insert words of the dominant culture.
Now flip.
My poem is solely birthed from my lived experience aka ‘multiply oppressed in the Indian state’ and is my reality, so the moment they believe my reality over their perception of my reality i.e my poem, I’d not be a sexual harraser and my potential loss of life cannot be called a natural consequence but instead becomes a violent oppressive attack and their entire basis/argument of me collapses.
Dominant culture not believing my reality (even if unable to understand) and forcing their perception of it on me is sanist and violently oppressively so, which is then used to create a false narrative of me being sexual harraser to justify any loss of life/livelihood/dignity of me as a natural consequence, is deeply violent, carceral, oppressive in nature and also enables and justifies(!) further sexual violence on me as part of natural consequence.”
The public acknowledgement from Liv
We said in the original post that “because Liv posted about Mukta in public, so a public acknowledgement should be done”.
We were told by the comments that it was indeed done.
Hun? We didn’t know.
No one was gonna tell Mukta or me when that happened either, do yall really think that’s not important? Liv proactively making that acknowledgement by realising the mistake themselves (or with supportive people to process together etc), vs ONLY doing it after PERCEIVED PRESSURE is completely different in terms of accountability. Omitting that to shape YOUR NARRIATIVE is manipulative.
And regardless of when Liv was not proactive because WHENEVER it was posted, it didn’t get to the person that needed to see/know it the most. It is performative.
Anyone watching, DON’T DO THIS. activism is not for your private self improvement.
But, we are accused of “taking it too far”, just because we posted publicly, pointed out the lack of public acknowledgement (TO OUR KNOWLEDGE) and dared to analyse how whiteness was a part of this.
Me posting the public post may be the sole reason Liv acknowledged their harm, at all.
And I’m supposed to take down the whole analysis just because they apologised? Nah. That’s why I was going to (and did) modify it and acknowledge what happened, but leave the analysis here.
If you only look at the commentor’s attitudes, is it as if Liv already apologised way ahead of time, and we are only doing something completely unneccesary by posting to ask for the thing that was already done. And of course we should have known about it without anyone being proactive about telling us, that’s our fault only. (literally trying to rewrite reality again) (Even the person who reached out and wanted to mediate didn’t mention this. HOW WOULD WE KNOW??)
Liv should have? Liv owe?
These points are about “Liv or Mukta don’t owe each other anything”/”Liv doesn’t owe you repair”/”Liv isn’t oblgated to X”
First Let me address something related and be really clear here.
There were multiple places in the original post that sort of..? implied Liv should have done things differently. Like when I said Liv blocked “immediately”, could be suggesting they should have waited; the analysis on “Liv said Mukta is someone they don’t know” could be suggesting how Liv acted there is what led to Everything that happened; maybe even talking about me being blocked could be suggesting Liv shouldn’t have blocked me…
So, if I’m doing an ok job of trying someone else’s shoes, in the critique’s eyes, I was constantly invalidating what Liv did, and that’s wrong and victim blaming.
I understand (at least now I understand better), that to literally suggest what Liv should or shouldn’t have done, when it’s a response to what Mukta did, can be victim blaming. And the post wasn’t very clear in these parts (although I don’t know how clear is possible because I’m analysing Liv’s actions after all. Yall demand a custom made wrap around argument and miss the actual argument that’s already there..)
But why yall also doing the same to us? and that’s not victim blaming? Because yall are “right”? Or because even though you say “ok i guess Mukta was hurt” but you don’t actually believe that?
I think they do(did) owe each other something. an apology for what was done wrong. Or call it accountability. Each party don’t owe to accept that apology though and don’t owe to interact in specific “approved” ways and that is something I didn’t get clear on and apologise, and may be what yall are actually referring to as not being owed. So hope this clarifys things.
As for oweing repair (keep in mind the thing I already apologised for and will keep sincerely apologising for), I again want to clarify something that only came to me after discussing with commentors. (Would be nice if I realised this sooner, but hey I learned from this and now I know)
Repair of a relationship between 2 people and accountability can be intertwined but they’re different concepts.
Mukta was willing to do relational repair only if Liv wishes.
Accountability on the other hand, is required from both Mukta and Liv.
I didn’t distinguish this clearly originally both in my mind and in the post which may look like us wanting to force a relational repair, while what we should be saying is accountability is only the thing that definitely should happen. I apologise for the confusion. to clarify this now - this was not the intention and we don’t think it would be reasonable.
So relational repair isn’t owed, but apology/accountability IS owed.
Also… I’m not sure if “people don’t owe you repair” in general is helpful.
like, if you’re triggered, and engaging (especially specific forms of engaging) doesn’t help, then not engaging seems like a good option for that time. this I understand and agree.
i can see people don’t owe us an interaction, especially any specific form of interaction according to/demanded by us, after we hurt them, that would be centering the person who caused harm again. (again I apologise for expressing this)
Adding the distinction between relational repair vs accountability stated before… “Liv doesn’t owe you repair” I agree with.
but to say “people don’t owe each other repair”, as a general belief… (maybe that’s not what you all think but let me address in case anyone does think this)
do yall agree that a liberated society will not be without harm? (I first heard this from someone but idk who first spread this idea)
if we just cut people off permanently after each harm or hurt can we have community at all?
(don’t twist my words - I am not saying don’t EVER cut people off, and I’m not saying “Liv should have xyz” here, just talking in general. I am aware, many times people especially more oppressed/marginalised people, have been exactly pushed out of community “for community”. So definitely needs to look at each case with nuance.)
if you have any thoughts or any reading materials to recommend I’d appreciate it. I need to learn more about this.
Mukta caused harm too
We HAVE addressed this. The original post have said Mukta caused harm and willing to be accountable.
what we may “disagree” is how “serious” the hurt caused by Mukta is. people tell me that I’m understating it.
when you are telling me, that Liv’s intention was not to hurt Mukta’s fundraiser, Liv’s intention was just to call Mukta in… BECAUSE I SEE MUKTA’S HUMANITY, I also can tell you, Mukta is a human with intentions too. Mukta’s intention was not to trigger or hurt Liv. Mukta’s intention was actually to apologise immediately, but they couldn’t (not just because blocked, but also because they can’t post this on their own page). Mukta’s intention was they realise their mistake, they realise they triggered Liv and they shouldn’t have, Mukta have apologised…. see the circular argument? see the shifting goal post?
Do you care about Mukta’s humanity? do you believe Mukta as much as you believe a white person?
You can “conclude” “assume” Mukta doesn’t have good intentions but when I tell you via my analysis that when I look at X behaviours, it seems Liv may not have good inentions, yall can’t understand that. Yall would turn around and say “also, intention isn’t everything.”
if you think Liv’s intention holds weight and you don’t treat Mukta’s intention the same, there’s a double standard. I’m not saying you should or shouldn’t see intention in a certain way, just it needs to be consistent and not applied differently to your friend vs a stranger(*), a person with white power vs a person without.
Do you want Mukta to do some specific action? yall keep saying Mukta “needs to take accountability” as if they didn’t, but they did, and the way that they did, isn’t satisfactory. So is there something specific yall want them to do?
(If the anwser is “agree that the poem is violent” or something like that, see Mukta’s comments & later analyses in the next blog post where we responded to this)
And why Mukta needs to prove it to you? to make YOU satisfied? When you show us you won’t be unless we reject Mukta’s reality and accept YOUR version of reality that you want to prescribe to us?
and why does this suddenly have to be done YOUR WAY when Liv is free to choose whatever they do, always with an “understandable” reason? whatever Liv HAVE DONE yall have just accepted with zero requirements whatsoever which reinforces existing white neutrality?? (literally talked about this point in original post too)
and why can’t we talk the same way about Liv? why if we make demands of Liv we are suddenly the unreasonable one (with whatever “understandable” reasons)? We didn’t even make any demands directed at Liv but the post itself is already seen as “too much”.
why this double standards everywhere??? WHITENESS!!
Some related points also gets brought up many times like “Liv was triggered”, “Liv’s reaction was reasonable/understandable” despite we have addressed that in the original post as well.
People seem to ignore those points or maybe think I didn’t “mean it”?
Why when I say something, it does not get interpreted as what I mean? and yall act like the authority on what I mean?
That’s what yall are and all yall know. But reflect and you may understand.
(This is NOT the same as insisting I mean something when I didn’t mean it, to evade judgement or accountability. Example: I said stuff equivalent to “Liv should engage”, and later I realised that was wrong, so I acknowledged and apologised. I AM able to see my mistakes. and I SHOULD BE able to tell you what I mean and have it be believed.)
You seriously come to tell me, that Liv was emotionally hurt biiiiig time (VALID), and that dictates what level of apology, remorse Mukta or I should show, and how we should completely cater to Liv’s comfort and THEIR understanding of reality even down to our own internal reality, and turn around and just tell me with a straight face that YOU DON”T THINK Mukta was “harmed as much as Liv”?? When Mukta or I tell you how hurt Mukta was, it’s just apparently not worth believing? You’re just gonna argue that away with your “logic”?
double standards. You don’t see Mukta’s humanity. WHITENESS.
“It’s not about race”
I never talked about race in the analysis, and that was deliberate. (and yall missed that point)
I talked about whiteness and white power and systematic power imbalance.
I also didn’t say who “was racist” but I talked about how the whiteness playing out systematically is felt by Mukta and me, and we chatted about how it’s similar to our (and other people’s) other experiences.
It’s about dominance and oppression. Not just race.
the construct of whiteness is played out in race (as in for example, a situation where people with different races are involved, like this one) yes but also is not quite the same as racism/race-based discrimination. I would say it’s broader than racism and is the connecting factor for racism to be connected to other injustices and oppression like colonialism, imperialism and even capitalism patriarchy etc. (correct/fill me in if you have different thoughts/sources!)
For example, someone being non-white doesn’t exempt them from using or benefiting from whiteness, or have beliefs based on whiteness/coloniality.
Whiteness doesn’t come from your skin colour, it comes from what you’re exposed to growing up/in your whole life, and how you position yourself in these values - are you “the whites” - the ones at the top? are you not one of them but try to share some white power or do you justify it? or are you completely buried underneath? (and everything in between) And that exposure doesn’t just happen in white countries/places.
Here specifically, why whiteness plays a part is also about Mukta being from and located in the global south*, and Liv (and supporters) being in the empirial core. So no, it’s absolutely not just about race.
I don’t have the most eloquent words here so I’ll try to find some sources that talks more rigoriously about whiteness.
For now (because I’m chronically on instagram) I recommend Asiatu and Joris, it’s social media content but these 2 definitely know what they’re talking about.
In conclusion, what happened to Mukta, the emotional harm caused to Mukta, DOES have to do with whiteness. If we were to unlearn whiteness, decolonise our minds, we have to SEE that this kind of shit usually favors the global north* (donimate culture) and disproportionately harms the global south*.
“why make a whole post” “this level of response (is wrong)”
Why did we have to make a post? Liv only posted on their stories didn’t they? You escalated!
First bold of yall to assume this is all about yall. The post was an acknowledgement of Mukta’s wrongdoings, and an analysis. The analysis part is not directed at Liv or anyone, but learning material and warning and support (again, already stated) for ANYONE applicable (including them).
And let me remind you, Mukta can’t post about this on their page.
So if Mukta want to publicly address this (because addressing provately is not possible), Mukta have to post via someone.
And that someone, me, happen to think this whole situation is worth talking about.
Liv thought it was worth talking about in whatever form they chose - public stories, and they did that, no arguments.
No one was telling Liv (as far as we can know) that “hey Liv you could have not posted it publicly”?
Why I’m the problem?
Is there something so fundamentally different about posting on stories and on grid? And even if you think so, is that a universal truth?
Let me also expand on something that was in the post, that got used against me.
I had Liv’s ig handle in my post, in screenshots.
I do (and did) apologise for having it, as I didn’t intent to have it but had it by accident, that’s a mistake; and having your page to be tracable like that isn’t a good feeling in general. and I took steps to correct it. - This part is just repeating what I already said in Part 2. But there’s more I need to say about this.
I made a mistake and addressed it, but it still was used against me.
When making the post and when it was posted, our understanding was that Liv made no effort to de-identify, so it’s not in our obligation to de-identify either. If we did, that would have benn a nice guesture, but using it against me is double standards.
If Liv did already de-identify the screenshots at that point, we didn’t know. If we were just told somehow (doesn’t have to be any specific person or way just SOMEHOW), we would have looked over and edited the post.
We still took down the post as soon as possible after we came to know though. so after that people have been real quiet (as far as I can know).
(Also it’s likely they only did that AFTER knowing we posted and did it due to PERCEIVED PRESSURE. then supporters just turned around and used it against me. again, tell me if I’m wrong and I’ll admit it.)
Anyway - We didn’t know, and we acted according to the information we had, at the time of posting.
Now, if somehow “acting according to the information we had” wasn’t good enough, I have to remind you, Liv acted in the beginning, according to the information they had. They thought Mukta was out to get them (having this thought is fair, as that’s Liv’s own judgement of the situation), so they immediately blocked and posted those stories (and commented on the mutual aid post, and reached out to others including me who supported Mukta, separately). In the original post we said, and we still think, these actions were unnecessary.
But yall all come to Liv’s defense and call us victim blaming.
Yall believe Liv without question, and don’t believe us. Simple.
(Also… I didn’t intend to go out of my way to include Liv’s handle, Liv’s handle was there on the screenshot as part of instagram’s UI. It was never separately mentioned. Liv however, had Mukta’s PAGE AS A SEPARATE SCREENSHOT on their stories. The effort, the intentional action (you can’t post a whole new story/screenshot and be unaware that you did it? unless specific situations?), the level of exposing is higher - don’t agree with me here, fine. This is not to argue who was “more wrong” as both can have very similar effects, and both now corrected, but just a comparision of what happened and the different reaction.)
Another small and kind of related thing. Apparently me asking for support/different voices to comment on the post in my stories was somehow… bad?
Liv asked “I could really use some support” when they received things that made them upset? Why am I not allowed to? I asked in public because there’s no shade about it whatsoever?
Literally don’t get why that makes it a “DARVO” campaign. Try not to use words you don’t actually udnderstand.
Important note, if u care
This blog post isn’t about specific comments, but I do want to point out, many comments were harmful and vile and unhinged.
This caused harm to Mukta.
The comments directed at me caused harm to me.
(but now do there bringers of justice care about that? they think we deserve as much shit they can throw at us, as soon as we failed their compliance test. talk about “the post is too much” but your comments, which is received by real people too, is VILE. This is the signature of double standards and oppression and whiteness.)
I also talked with 1 person in DMs in which the person called me “insane” and “delusional”, demanded to talk to me and not Mukta, asked me questions like an interrogation (which after I answer they mostly ignore that point and not respond), demanded me to take the post down, say I’m wasting my time, AND MORE, while they made wild assumptions about the situation that they took as REALITY and was NOT going to change their MIND when new information was presented - audacity??
This person is active in organising and mutual aid in Narrm. I don’t know them irl but if anyone like to know I can tell you the ig account they used to dm me.
I really have more to say about the comments and interactions but I’ll refrain and only talk about those in the designated place. (Honestly at this point I don’t know if I’ll be repsponding to the comments more specifically as it’s taken too much of my time and energy and it’s starting to feel draining.)
I personally, actually don’t care if those people apologise or do anything. If you learn, cool. But wether you do or don’t, that’s not my business. This is not about “showing off being a bigger person” as that’s still resentment and just a weird thing… But I’m still telling you this here because the truth is worth being told. People deserve to know what happens when you are not supposed to have humanity and even stand by it but you do…
I already said in the original post, that we worry about what will happen after we make the post. And of course, if we had kept quiet, nothing would move forward but we would not have to be attacked for a second round. We had to evaluate if it was worth it (do that labour even before it happened), and we thought you know what, this happens too often. It must have already happened before and will happen again. If we speaking up will reduce it even a little bit, or reduce some existing pain from our sisters(gender neutral), then it IS worth it.
That’s all for now!